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Here is a usenet discussion centering on 3E Dungeons and Dragons rules for liontaurs.

From: Andy Baker (
Subject: Re: new races need constructive criticism 3E
Date: 2000-11-01 11:24:55 PST
Tiama'at wrote:

> (Andy Baker) wrote in
> >Luke Goaman-Dodson wrote:
> >
> >> While oi was sailing ahn a poirate ship on 25/10/00 8:34 pm, Cap'n
> >> Andy Baker wrote in the log:
> >>
> >> > Liontaur: +3 CR. +2 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con. +3d8 HD. +2 base attack. +3
> >> > Fort, +1 Ref, +1 Will. Large. +4 natural armor. -3 ranks/skill, +9
> >> > Hide, +3 Jump, +6 Listen, +3 Move Silently, +9 Spot, +3 Wilderness
> >> > Lore. Power Attack, Cleave. Weapon Proficiency. Alignment: usually
> >> > lawful good. Favored class: fighter
> >>
> >> Do you think that you will get a lot of Liontaur characters?
> >
> >  Well, in the two different games I ran, I had a grand total of one
> >  player who
> >  played a Liontaur, and it was only slightly unbalanced (being under 2E
> >  rules, there was no real good way to model the +3 levels due to natural
> Question: are you trying to make the liontaur more attractive?  I'm not
> seeing a lot of drawbacks to playing one (besides geo-cultural/player
> choice)

No, I'm just trying to model them as I see them. The drawbacks to playing them are primarily cultural, but I didn't take that into account when modeling them here- I don't like mixing roleplaying penalties with combat bonuses, and besides, in the part of the world where they're native, they don't have so many of those roleplaying penalties (since they're the ruling race). Do you think the CR bonus is off? It doesn't seem to be to me. A 1st-level liontaur fighter and a 4th-level human fighter are roughly similar. Compare the NPC fighter from the book, with the liontaur info added on. Same starting ability scores (with the liontaur bonuses added in):

The liontaur has five more hit points, 1 point higher AC (his extra dex is offset by his size), one point higher initiative (assuming that he took Improved Initiative and Weapon Focus (bastard sword) at level 1) a one point higher Fortitude and Reflex save, and a total of 35 skill points, all but 2
of which are spent for him (though some are in skills that are cross-class to a fighter).

The human has all the same feats the liontaur has, plus Weapon Specialization (assuming that his bonus proficiency allowed him to pick up Cleave earlier), a point higher melee attack (and 2 higher damage), 2 points higher missile attack (and three more points to damage), and a total of 24 skill points. All in all, there's not an incredible amount of difference between the two -- the human is better at some things, the liontaur at others. And that's how it's supposed to work, I'd think.

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